Tuesday, April 19, 2005

On this day

12 years ago, over 80 people were massacred in cold blood by the BATF and the FBI. Two years later, two individuals, having seen that no justice was being done, decided to take matters into their own hands, and avenge the dead of Mt Carmel on the agencies that murdered them. So they murdered 168 more people, most of whom did not work for either agency, some of whom did not even work for the USA government at all.

President Clinton and the forces of hatred on the left jumped at the opportunity to launch a witch-hunt against the right, claiming that this crime was somehow connected to the patriot movement, but it turned out that McVeigh had attended one meeting of the Michigan Militia and been kicked out, while he spent three years in the armed forces and was discharged with honour. So much for that.

In any case, the two individuals responsible for the OKC massacre have been apprehended, tried, convicted, and punished. Meanwhile, the butchers of Waco, who acted in the name and with the authority of the people of the USA, remain free.

UPDATE: Gary McGath blogs about this in more detail.


Anonymous Bruce said...

I'm curious. Which is more important: apprehending and trying the US agents who fubar'ed the operation at Waco (which ought, IMO, to have been aimed solely at those who were breaking the law; IIRC there were significant violations of weapons statutes, and there were at least allegations of kidnapping or unlawful detainment -- there was NO excuse for actions resulting in innocent casualties, much less the results obtained), or the successful apprehension of Usama Bin Laden, admitted mastermind behind the attacks on 9/11? If the latter, why was the (apprehension) operation in Afghanistan mounted and pursued so poorly, and with so little vigor once the Taliban was (correctly) toppled? Why were troops that could have made the difference diverted from that operation, and why is he still at large?

Or are internal matters more important? In which case, why are we overseas at all?

Whom are you suggesting that we arrest, from the US forces active that day? Whose fault was it, in other words?

I'm asking for information here, and yes, for an opinion on priority. Once all of that's clear, the rest follows.

Tue Apr 19, 08:09:00 PM 2005  
Blogger Gary McGath said...

Just to address a few factual issues:

The firearms violation consisted of having converted some semi-automatic weapons to full automatic without registering the conversion. The conversion would have been legal with the proper paperwork filed. One may or may not consider that "significant," but certainly it didn't merit the response it got.

I haven't heard of any substantiated charged of kidnapping or unlawful detainment by the Branch Davidians. Statutory rape certainly occurred, but it was a matter of Koresh's "marrying" girls who were seriously underage, not of physical coercion.

Tue Apr 19, 09:29:00 PM 2005  
Anonymous Bruce said...

I haven't gone back to the records and reports to verify my memory. I had thought there were some specifically illegal (that is, regardless of paperwork) arms on that site. If not, then not, and I cede the point.

Also, please note that I said "allegations of" -- and specifically left open for further proof -- the kidnapping and unlawful detentions. I never heard of or saw any hard evidence that would have substantiated it, though I do recall those charges as having been made. Perhaps in light of the botch job the Feds made of the situation, they decided not to pursue them further.

That's why I am trying to distinguish between innocents who were made casualties in such a spectacular fashion and anyone who did in fact deserve prosecution, at least, and possibly significantly more.

Tue Apr 19, 09:35:00 PM 2005  
Blogger Milhouse said...

Red herring. The butchers of Waco aren't walking free for lack of resources devoted to catch them; they're not hiding in a cave somewhere; all that was required was a prosecutor's decision to indict them.

Nor do I concede that the apprehension operation in Afghanistan was mounted poorly, or that troops were available but not used. But apprehending one person is not the only task we have to fulfill. Ultimately other goals take priority. Having dismantled bin Laden's operation in Afghanistan, and put most of his forces out of action, actually catching him became less important than doing the same to Saddam Hussein. Not that the job was abandoned, but we can't devote the entire resources of the USA to it.

Thu Apr 21, 12:21:00 AM 2005  
Blogger C.M. Burns said...

"Butchers of Waco"? I think, Milhouse, that you're being a bit overdramatic. The deaths at Waco were tragic and could have been prevented. I agree. I think Reno should have been fired/forced to resign after the fire. The whole thing was botched from day 1. But it was botched, not planned. Do you think that the ATF agents who went to arrest Koresh on Day 1 were planning on massacring everyone inside? That's what it sounds like, and frankly I find it a tad disurbing.

Let's face facts here. Tim McVeigh and his crowd were evil. I mean it. Evil. Blowing up a federal building in Oklahoma, slaughtering innocents intentionally is a whole lot different than what by all accounts was the unintentional burining of the Waco compound. There is no equivalency between the agents at the scene there and McVeigh. None. McVeigh deliberatly killed those people in Ok. City. The FBI/ATF did so, in my mind, and by most reliable accounts accidentally. Don't forget that Koresh and crew rigged the place to burn. Unless you think that they wanted to kill them all. Do you think that? The most they could ever be tried for is manslaughter.

Waco shouldn't be forgotten, but not because the "butchers" are loose. It should be a textbook example of how not to arrest someone, how not to handle a standoff, and how not to deal with a nutjob who thinks he's Jesus reborn. Janet Reno should also have a picture of the place next to her biography as testament to her being the worst AG ever. But the "attack on religious people" that you've spun this into simply isn't there.

Thu Apr 21, 10:53:00 AM 2005  

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